00:01We want to tell you about where education is and where it's going, and before I introduce our speakers, I just want to say…

00:06…a few words about where this is going in a kind of more general sense.

00:12Bill Miller's working paper, which I highly recommend, talks about geodesign being no big deal.

00:16Well, I want to make the argument it is a very big deal, and Jack said today that ArcGIS Online is a new medium.

00:23I totally agree. And I think, borrowing from McLuhan, the medium here is the message.

00:29We all have been using GIS. It's a very powerful tool. Like many good tools though, it has largely enabled us to do what…

00:37…we already know how to do better, faster, and cheaper.

00:40I want to make the argument that geodesign is a change in kind, and not just degree, from GIS.

00:47That it is a fundamentally new way of thinking about this that I think you'll see from our presenters as having revolutionary…

00:54…implications for education. Why is that? I think because education, like the physical environment itself, has been…

01:03…developed in, to use Paul's term, disjointed incrementalism. That we have essentially fragmented habitat, exploited…

01:12…resources, divided communities, because of the way in which we see the world, and the way in which we think about it.

01:20And so, I want to make the case in three, four minutes, that geodesign is a radically synthetic tool, synthesizing tool…

01:28…and that it will change the way we do design, the way we think about science, and the way we educate.

01:35So let me just give you a few examples of what I mean by that. GIS science in general is very good at conveying information.

01:43Education is very good at having big lecture halls and having faculty convey information. Not very good at conveying values.

01:51Design, on the other hand, is a very value-laden activity, but has not been very data rich. Has not been very informed.

01:59What geodesign does is it brings the fact/value divide that has existed since David Hume and has certainly…

02:07…been an underpinning of a lot of the modern universities. It brings those two together in a very powerful way.

02:15As we heard from Carl, science works from this sort of planetary scale down. Design works from the site scale up.

02:23Geodesign is, I think, a tool that will enable us to work at both scales simultaneously. Very powerful.

02:30So the idea ultimately I think, is so that we can make site decisions and know planetary impacts.

02:36I think that's where we're going, and that will be profound.

02:41Science is very good, and humanities are really good, at telling us what was, and what is. Design talks about what could be.

02:48Those things have been kept very separate in universities. Geodesign brings them together.

02:53This is just also changing our ethics. Science has very good, at helping us understand consequences.

03:00Design is very much a discipline focused on having good intentions.

03:05Has generally been pretty poor in understanding the consequences of design decision.

03:10Geodesign enables those two ethical positions. Focused on intentions and focused on consequences brings them together.

03:18It's also changing our roles as professionals. We have basically been educating specialists in fields for at least most of this century.

03:30Designers are the last generalist profession. And geodesign enables us, to use Carl's terms, to not only have soloists…

03:39…but to have conductors, and to have them working together in an orchestrated way.

03:44And then finally, to build on something that Bill Miller talks about in his working paper, it is changing the way we reason.

03:52That science is inductive. Design is abductive and geodesign is a going back and forth between induction and abduction.

04:02Moving laterally, as well as deep. And this is changing the way in which we will be educating.

04:09Universities have been, of course, also spatially distributed in ways to keep all of these disciplines separate, as we all know…

04:18…and has fragmented knowledge. And I think one of the reasons why geodesign is having, and will have…

04:25…and continue to have such a powerful impact on education, is that universities are completely unsustainable…

04:30…and they are getting to the point where they're unaffordable and they cannot keep going the way they are going.

04:36So universities themselves have become a geodesign problem, and a geodesign opportunity.

04:42And I think some of what we'll hear today is really to make that point. So, I just wanted to give you a very…

04:48…one slide here. Last year, I talked in my Lightning Talk about this spatial infrastructure we were setting up at…

04:55…the University of Minnesota, and also the notion of the challenge-based curriculum.

04:59I just wanted to report back to show you the profound effect that geodesign is having.

05:03One of the things we're finding is geodesign is becoming pervasive.

05:07It's being used, not only in the geography department, and in the department of landscape architecture, it's being used in…

05:12…our education college to teach creativity to kids in K–12 education. It's being used in agriculture to redesign the food system.

05:20It's being used in our government school to redesign government. And so, geodesign is becoming pervasive…

05:26…and it's incredible how many things we're discovering almost every day.

05:31The other thing is that it is leading and driving this challenge-oriented way of thinking about universities.

05:38We've discovered that applied economics is using it to basically ask the question, How will…

05:46…nine billion people fit on the planet? And so, these are economists using geodesign.

05:53We have an institute in the environment that has a Natural Capital project…

05:57…which is looking at how we can continue to develop using the natural capital of the planet. And so, this notion of education…

06:05…moving toward a kind of key-shape orientation where students would major in a discipline and minor in a challenge…

06:13…is I think, one of the ways in which geodesign is going to sort of force and encourage a restructuring of education, and…

06:22… we're starting to see that now. And then, a couple final points.

06:27I think another thing that is going to happen as a result of this is, as we're seeing with ArcGIS Online, as we're…

06:35…seeing with some of the online degree programs that are arising in places like Penn State, and USC, is it will…

06:42…increasingly drive a kind of virtuality to education. I think we'll challenge universities to say, Why come to a campus?

06:50I think it's going to also encourage a lot of collaboration. Cartels is another term that Carl's used among universities around…

07:00…challenges. And so, I think that actually the kind of gathering we have here is an example of the way in which…

07:07…education will increasingly be structured, where there will be many disciplines from many institutions…

07:13…gathering around important questions.

07:16And then finally, I think that one of the things we're seeing as we look at what's happening in these other…

07:21…disciplines, is they're also starting to be quite interested in the studio model of education, is they're recognizing that…

07:28…studio is, has always been, this kind of marginalized activity at universities, is this immersive, conversationally based…

07:38…oriented, storytelling oriented game-like way of learning and teaching, and I think we will see that being pervasive.

07:48And that is really why I wanted the group of speakers today to tell you about what they're doing largely in…

07:54…studio and applying geodesign. And as you will see, it's theoretical and applied. It's both about facts and values.

08:02It's about both what is, and what could be. And I think we're about to have a treat to see some of the best work going on…

08:08…anywhere in the country among our speakers. So let me introduce our first speaker, Karen Hanna, who many of you…

08:15…know is former dean at Cal Poly Pomona, and is now in the department of landscape architecture.

08:20She's a landscape architect. A well known author of two books, GIS in Site Design and…

08:26…GIS in Landscape Architecture, so Karen.

08:29Thank you. Ah, okay, technology works. Okay, I'm going to talk today about this project, which is a 606…

08:38…project. And our 606 studio takes the third year of our graduate program.

08:44And for 30 years we've been doing these projects. John Lyle started these projects. And for the last 15 years…

08:52…we've been using GIS in them, and the GIS and geospatial technologies are getting more and more complex.

08:59I have to recognize the student team that did this project, Jake, Megan, Eric and Sina.

09:07This project is an LID project, a low impact development project. And it takes place in San Antonio, Texas.

09:17The…it's sponsored by the Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center, and the San Antonio River Authority.

09:26And the purpose of this project is not just to look at LID principles, but to serve as a baseline that could become…

09:36…a guidebook for a statewide manual on LID. So everybody knows that LID is mostly about storm water management…

09:46…and there're two big parts of LID. One is design, and Doug Olsen talked quite a bit about this yesterday.

09:55And the other half is the BMPs, the best management practices, and there have been numerous references to…

10:04…BMPs in the last several presentations. So these are the principles, and I won't read through them.

10:14One of the things that we require in 606 is that the students must work at the regional scale, the local scale, and the site scale.

10:22So they have to do analysis at all three scales. And so, that it's become, we believe it's become geodesign…

10:31…because it's at all three scales.

10:35So here is the San Antonio River watershed, right there. And this part of Texas is called flash flood alley because of the…

10:48…weather patterns cause lots and lots of flooding.

10:52And so, LID is an issue that's very important for most of Texas.

10:59This section through the watershed shows, you know, the upper watershed, the prairie, and the plains.

11:10The plains area is where the city of San Antonio is. And during this project we were very fortunate because we were…

11:19…able to use a hydrology expert from the University of Texas at Austin, which is very close by.

11:27Somebody who's very familiar with the flood actions that take place in this area. And so, very traditional GIS analysis…

11:39…looking at different soil types, impervious area, the areas that have been built on.

11:48And then they came up with a complete nine factors. Now I agree with Carl, you don't have to collect all the data in…

11:57…the world, you need to determine what the issues are and determine how much data you need to answer those questions.

12:06They were fortunate because they were able to go there and have two rounds of public meetings and meetings with…

12:12…all their stakeholders. And so they found out what the values were of the local population.

12:20So, you know, they included aquifer recharge areas, riparian areas, population density, and so forth.

12:27And then, you know, pretty straightforward analysis map. And from that, they selected four areas where they…

12:37…could do different types of site designs that demonstrated LID principles.

12:44And so, this is high in the watershed, a greenfield site with a retention basin and coverage, woodland coverage.

12:56Traditional design, 220 homes. An LID design, 230 apartments plus 90 homes. They did not look at the market…

13:07…comparability of these, but they were able to preserve a lot of this canopy, which slows down the water, put in…

13:18…a new stream, preserve these retention ponds, and add recreational facilities.

13:26And then, of course, show some graphics of what that would look like. And then downtown, of course, they had…

13:33…a much denser area. This is an example of an existing residential area where there wasn't much opportunity to do LID…

13:44…design and apply those principles, but they could put BMPs. And so, I'll show you just a couple of little examples of BMPs.

13:55Here's an existing residential site where they've put a rain garden in the front and a cistern in the back.

14:01And so here, whoops, there's the section and here's the proposed section. This was a vacant lot that they turned…

14:11…into a park because their public meeting said that they needed more recreation in this area.

14:17And so, a little park with a biofiltration area, a recreation area, and a parking area.

14:24And that's the section, and there's a visual simulation of it. And then, as in all of our projects, we require them…

14:33…to extrapolate what they've discovered, and then figure out what the net gain would be. So here's the predevelopment runoff.

14:45Here's the existing situation, and this is after they've installed these LID principles in each area.

14:54Thank you very much.

15:00Our next speaker is Jim Querry, who's the GIS director for the city of Philadelphia and an adjunct faculty member in…

15:05…landscape architecture at Philadelphia University.

15:08He's registered, and has 25 years of experience applying GIS in design situations. So, Jim.

15:18Thank you. So I'm here representing Philadelphia University, a small university in Philadelphia.

15:26An enrollment of about 4,000. And quick disclosure. I'm a part-timer there, representing the university.

15:33And the university is developing a geodesign program, a geodesign master's program.

15:42We expect it to be kicking off about a year from now. We're not sure if it's going to be an MSLA, geodesign, or master…

15:50…of science in geodesign. We're figuring that out with the help of an advisory board.

15:57Let me jump right into the projects here. We…so Philadelphia University has an architecture program, landscape…

16:06…architecture program. We have a master's degree in sustainable design, construction management, interior and…

16:16…visualization, interior design and visualization. So all of that is in the College of Architecture in the built environment.

16:22The university is very innovative. They pride themselves on project-based programs.

16:29Project-based coursework and collaboration among departments, so transdisciplinary, interdisciplinary collaboration.

16:39And they're very tied into the community, obviously. So we draw heavily from Philadelphia in the region for…

16:46…faculty, part-time faculty who are practitioners, as well as projects and clients.

16:54We try to keep our projects client-based, so even in the intro class…so I've been teaching for seven years, an…

17:02…intro course, an advanced course. This is an example of something we did a few years ago in determining…

17:08…a suitable location for a cell phone lot at Philadelphia International Airport.

17:12So we would take the students out, we'd do a site assessment, meet with the airport, understand their program…

17:17…requirements and then start to get into…and I'm not saying this is geodesign, I'm saying this is our foray into geodesign.

17:26So this is how we're using GIS in design, in Philadelphia University. So, let's see if I have this correct.

17:34Ah, okay. So one of the things we're trying to do is help students visualize the impact of what they're doing in two dimension now.

17:42They're used to working in two dimensions. We're wanting them to be able to extend that and see what the results of their…

17:53…designs and what they're proposing. See the results of, and the impact of their design.

18:00So this is, as I said, an early example. This is something we just finished this semester.

18:07This was the advanced class, and a group of students right here, there are five of them, this…the idea of this was to find suitable…

18:19…sites for green roofs in the densest part of Philadelphia that is in the combined sewer overflow areas.

18:27So, two-thirds of the city has combined storm and sanitary systems. So that means we're treating storm water and…

18:35…we don't want to treat storm water if we don't have to.

18:37So we want to find where in those densest areas we can target to build these green roofs.

18:46So at the core of this was, I mean it was, it was a pretty standard process we went through.

18:51And at the core of it was the model. The students developed the model. They developed a tool.

18:58Something we're envisioning in the geodesign program is that they're not only going to, as part of that program…

19:05…experience this kind of a process, but they're going to experience developing these tools and then sharing…

19:12…these tools out with their colleagues, or contemporaries. So this was, just a quick example of how we're…

19:22…again, how we're using GIS now. As far as the proposed geodesign program, we're at a point where it is about to be submitted…

19:32…to the state for approval. Our target audience are recent graduates, undergraduate graduates in the allied professions.

19:42So landscape architecture, architecture, planning, urban planning. The other…the thing that we're trying to…

19:53…emphasize is, in this, is that we want this to be a service-based learning experience for the students.

20:01We want them to have real projects, real clients, and we also want it to be interdisciplinary.

20:07So we're involving architecture. We're involving interiors. We're involving sustainable design in the core curriculum…

20:16…and then we're having…right now, it's envisioned that we will have two immersive studios.

20:23And at the end of it, we're proposing that the program also incorporate a lot of innovative technology. So 3D automated…

20:41…content generation, data collection using lidar from various forms, whether it's spatial robotics, aerial, or mobile…

20:51…mapping, and that's pretty much it. We're…the program, as I said, is we're proposing to kick off about a year…

21:00…from now, assuming everything goes as planned, and we're looking forward to it.

21:08Thanks, Jim.

21:09Thank you.

21:12Our next speaker is Janet Silbernagel, from University of Wisconsin Madison, landscape architect, works on…

21:20…regional conservation strategy, so Janet.

21:23Great. Thank you. So I'm going to talk about a course in our bachelor's of science and landscape architecture…

21:32…program regional design course. One that I've been involved with for a number of years, which I love, and am...

21:40…also can be very frustrated by, and I'll tell you why. I have a couple of key goals for regional design.

21:49This comes from some of the learning objectives. Two main words that I try to bring to this regional design studio…

22:00…are synthesis and spatial form, and I'll add to that, strategies, too.

22:06But, so this is an upper-level landscape architecture studio. They're culminating, they're about to culminate their degree.

22:15So I expect, we expect them to come into this studio and be able to synthesize all the realms of knowledge that they've…

22:24…gained over their coursework over the…and design studios over the past several years.

22:30At this point they ought to be able to do that well.

22:33Secondly, spatial form is an obvious point here, but in terms of distinguishing regional design from a more policy-oriented…

22:42…regional planning, I talk to the students about that this is a form giving, it's spatially oriented.

22:50That you learn to read, interpret, and imagine patterns for the landscape. We come from the heritage of Phil Lewis, who…

23:01…envisioned patterns, big patterns across big landscapes and regions. And he did that in very visual and textural ways.

23:10And so we want to carry that on. Regional design is really form giving.

23:18And then third is the strategies.

23:20It's about developing, thinking strategically about the places to build, conserve, protect, et cetera, on a regional scale.

23:30So, back to Chengdu. An example from the studio project in 2008, I had been able to, I was coincidentally in Chengdu…

23:43…the September after the Sichuan earthquake, and knowing that I was coming back to teach the regional design course.

23:51So I was fortunate to have some Chinese colleagues who I was with in Chengdu, who were willing to take me up into…

23:59…the earthquake-affected region, and then share some of the data that, mapping data that they'd been working…

24:05…on that I could bring back to the class.

24:08And even more fortunate that I had a teaching assistant from China who could help translate data as it came back and forth.

24:17So an example just of one of the outputs from the course. Of course, panda habitat is an important part of…

24:28…Chengdu is here, this is a…it's at the base of the Tibetan plateau, so this is the plains, these are the mountains…

24:37…Wolong Nature Preserve and much of this landscape is habitat for the giant panda.

24:44So that's an important criteria, but also rebuilding urban centers and infrastructure.

24:50This one, this example of student work is just interesting to me in that they were beginning to think about scenarios…

24:59…with different strategic goals that aren't scale dependent as these suggest, but more about a short-term focus…

25:08…versus a real regional long-term focus. And trying to accommodate both the conservation and infrastructural needs.

25:18So we had work that these Chinese colleagues had done on mapping giant panda habitat and the habitat that was lost…

25:26…and they made use of those. They did, you know, another student group product here.

25:35They did the combined weighted overlays of infrastructure and environment. And each of those had their various layers of…

25:45…environmental and infrastructure layers, so the suitable panda habitat.

25:53And so, combining those and coming up, again, with strategic form-giving solutions is what we're trying to get at.

26:01So, more recently, now in this past fall, I'm no longer teaching the course, so a couple of instructors, Doug Hadley…

26:10…and James Steiner are taking a slightly different twist. They're working more with an urban regions focus and…

26:17…applying the book by Richard Forman on urban regions and, but again, pushing students to look at a city…

26:28…of their choice, and think about all the patterns and the layers of information that goes into understanding what…

26:39…gives a particular region its unique characteristics.

26:43And so this is just one page of one regional analysis for Savannah, Georgia, and how…so skipping over about five pages…

26:53…of more analysis, but how they arrive in some strategic solutions for that particular region.

27:02Now I forgot to mention, that what makes this frustrating is students are so reluctant to do this.

27:10To put…I encourage them to do really broad spatial sketching, you know, to sketch out ideas and, and spatial…

27:21…strategies and they're very timid about doing that. And I think, one is it's just scary to work at that scale when you…

27:29…haven't before, but second, they don't think that this will be helpful for their portfolio.

27:35So, of course, I know that it will be, but it's hard to convince them of that. So this is one of our biggest challenges.

27:44Here's another example from this past year for Salt Lake. So again, layers of information that synthesizing is coming together.

27:55The strategizing is coming together. What we are not getting to, in terms of geodesign, is the evaluation.

28:05I think they're getting to a design endpoint, like a designer looking for the evaluation as a critique from the…

28:13…professor and then something that they can put in the portfolio. So that's our sticking point right now.

28:21Thank you, Janet.

28:25Our next speaker is David Pitt, a professor in department of landscape architecture at the University of Minnesota…

28:31…coeditor of Landscape Journal. He's developed a GIS-based landscape assessment process for local governments, so, David.

28:39Thank you, John. I want to talk rather than about specific projects, I want to talk about a conceptual way of thinking…

28:48…about geodesign that several of us at the University of Minnesota and elsewhere, Michigan State and University…

28:55…of British Columbia, are using. And the only thing I want to talk about with this slide is, is that among the three…

29:02…universities in two countries, they're, in addition to landscape architecture, urban planning, agroecology…

29:08…hydrology, geography, ecological modeling, and social psychology.

29:12So we really are trying to integrate multiple ways of knowing and multiple understandings of landscape process.

29:23The major components of the process with which we are working essentially are three.

29:29First is the notion of spatial information. Multiple information sets pertaining to a design scenario development and evaluation…

29:39…focusing on participant perspectives, but also on landscape pattern and process, and particularly on performance of…

29:46…landscape. Both landscape prior to whatever intervention happens, as well as a landscape that happens after intervention.

29:55Secondly is the notion of communicating this information. Communication of scenario information among participants.

30:02And thirdly is use of iterative and transdisciplinary action processes among multiple stakeholders in terms of…

30:10…how they actually use this information. And then there are several feedback loops that we're working with, that wind up…

30:19…producing sort of a cyclical process of information, communication, and decision-making process in the social…

30:30…construction and evaluation of design outcomes.

30:34From a standpoint of transdisciplinary action processes, the way I like to define transdisciplinary is Dan Stokols'…

30:41…perspective that basically talks about the interaction of multiple disciplines, the interaction of experts and…

30:49…lay audiences with a common commitment to the construction and evaluation of new information, and…

30:56…in this case, alternative future visions.

30:59That process is facilitated toward tolerance and integration and multiple world views.

31:06A consensus-based approach for handling the conflicts between those world views leads to a sense of social learning, shared…

31:15…understandings, which then produces a collaborative decision-making processes toward design outcomes.

31:23Multiple information sets that we're talking about have to do with a stakeholder experiential perspectives with a…

31:31…systemic integrative and spatial temporal understandings of landscape performance having to do with such…

31:36…things as water quality, biodiversity, auto emissions, affordable housing. Of course, we use the A word there.

31:46And then, as I said earlier, a series of feedback loops that allow the initial design outcome to be evaluated, to be cycled back…

31:57…through communication representation and back into a design process.

32:05And then this information being communicated in terms that are salient, credible, legitimate and…

32:13…understandable to the stakeholders, and are communicated through multiple modes of representation and visualization…

32:21…that have been far better illustrated than I can talk about today.

32:25So the overall model of this notion of social construction of policy for integrative landscape planning involves…

32:33…spatial modeling of integrative and systemic understandings, visualization and representation of that information…

32:40…pertaining to landscape performance and experience and then the construction of and evaluation through…

32:48…communicative action and social learning among multiple stakeholder groups of design strategies which then are…

32:57…fed back into spatial modeling, fed back through the communication and process. And so, it's kind of an iterative process.

33:08The…why transdisciplinary geodesign? Number of reasons. The landscape metrics derived from comprehensive…

33:17…the information leads to adaptively develop performance-based scenarios.

33:24The communication process leads to more stable decisions that are more likely to be owned.

33:31Results in better informed design decision making that is more stable over time.

33:36So we get more sustainable landscapes with greater longevity.

33:41I have a series of slides here that I'm not really going to show because they simply illustrate how we are operationalizing…

33:49…this process with interaction among our different stakeholder groups. The process of individual iteration analysis…

34:00…communication, action, reflection leading back to analysis communication.

34:07And then multiple iterations across time leading eventually then, to the production of a design outcome…

34:17…and a whole series of acyclical processes going on. Skip over that and thank you very much.

34:26Thank you.

34:30Our next speaker is Tom Paradis, who's the chair of the Department of Geography, Planning and Recreation…

34:35…at Northern Arizona University. And they are just about to start a new bachelor's degree in geographical science…

34:41…and community planning. So, Tom, you're up.

34:48Alright. Okay, hi everyone. What I'd like to do today is share with you an overview, kind of what you might call…

34:58…the view from 30,000 feet. A new curriculum for a bachelor's of science degree at NAU in Flagstaff.

35:05And this, just by way of a general introduction, was a process that, as Dave DiBiase reminded us yesterday, can…

35:16…probably take 18 months to two years, something like that, to complete, if not more.

35:21And so, we went through that process of a pretty extensive curriculum mapping approach to curriculum design.

35:29And I'm going to show you briefly what came out of that today, and the degree that we actually launched this last fall.

35:37And if you want more details about the actual courses and the sequence of the program and so forth, Shannon…

35:43…was nice enough to allow me to put these things out on the table where the other books are outside so you can…

35:50…grab one of those on your way out if you choose.

35:53And this actually, I was interested in sharing. We call these rack cards at NAU because, I guess they fit in a rack, and…

36:03…we hand these out to students for all the disciplines, all the majors, as appropriate, to share with…

36:08…students what some of the degree programs are. And so I thought this was kind of a neat way.

36:13And we designed our own, of course. We are now in the promotional phase of this new major.

36:18So I think I'll leave it to you to decide, you know, in what ways is this a geodesign program.

36:24In what ways, and I'll show you some ways in which we are moving forward with some ideas for implementation…

36:32…of geodesign. We've got a few things though, that we think we're doing constitute a geodesign approach.

36:39So, again, the view from 30,000 feet basically without all the coursework to go through in five minutes here.

36:47We're looking at a degree that's 43 to 44 credit hours and we called it geographic science and community planning.

36:55I think this is one of the longest-named majors on campus, and this was an issue for us in terms of compromise…

37:02…but we were concerned about calling it geodesign as of last year, since we still felt, as a faculty, that it was…

37:09…still a relatively new concept and would students really understand this?

37:13At least then we have a shot at them understanding geography and planning.

37:16So once they're into this program, we start introducing geodesign concepts with them.

37:22So some of the highlights here. It is an experiential learning approach.

37:28We have six credits now devoted to experiential learning, getting them outside of the classroom.

37:32And this includes possible internships, especially for those going into planning, as well as potential study…

37:40…abroad and things like that. The senior capstone is a university requirement, which I'm a big fan of, and we…

37:47…have two capstone courses. One of which you'll see very briefly in a moment.

37:51Writing across the curriculum.

37:53We're making sure that our students, in the best way we can, can write within the disciplines, both…

37:59…geography and planning. Can move back and forth within that.

38:02And so, every semester, well, I should say every year at least, they have a writing requirement, including…

38:08…a junior-level writing requirement in the major.

38:12The introductory courses, we actually revised a few courses based on the learning outcomes we were interested…

38:17…in having the students learn from the beginning. And those are the three introductory courses which the majors…

38:24…take, and they're all also liberal studies courses in our general education program.

38:29So that is often how they discover our majors. And two optional emphases. We have 18 credits each.

38:38If for those students wanting to get careers in the geospatial sciences, or as a community planner, or community…

38:44…development person, they can take those emphases and still retain those career paths through this degree.

38:50So kind of a breadth to a depth scenario. And then this is a scaffolded curriculum design.

38:55And, you know, not much time to talk about that today, but the idea is that the students are looking at skills development…

39:01…throughout the sequence, throughout the courses, so that each course is not an individual silo.

39:07The faculty are talking to each other as much as we can so that we know what's happening in each course moving…

39:12…along so that hopefully the students, we will be able to depend on skills coming into one class from another by…

39:20…the time they reach the capstone. So, I mean that's the ideal situation. Talk to me more about reality sometimes.

39:28So, the fundamentals of geodesign. Why we think we're headed towards this geodesign approach.

39:35And again, we have some specific areas we'd like to improve on as some of the other presenters mentioned, as well.

39:41But we see this as an interdisciplinary degree. We already have the geographers, the planners, the GIS folks…

39:47…within our department and we're taking advantage of that. So that is one of the strongest aspects of this.

39:56That we all talk to each other. We actually like being around each other and we created this combined degree to do all of this.

40:05To allow students to experience what is happening now with GIS and geography and then helping to design the future.

40:12That's kind of the idea. Local and global sustainability. This is one of the general themes of the major, whether they…

40:18…go into geography or planning, or combinations of that, and GIS and emerging technologies.

40:24This is a strong suit in the department. This is not one of my strong suits. I'm just helping lead the effort on this.

40:30We have several very competent professors in GIS-type technologies and so we think we can really build that in…

40:42…to make an effective curriculum. The capstone project in about 30 seconds' worth.

40:48Professor Dawn Hawley teaches this, and the last time she taught it was this past semester and this is the type of thing…

40:57…right now that incorporates GIS, Google Earth, Google SketchUp, those sorts of tools, and we only discovered…

41:05…Google SketchUp a few years ago.

41:07And she is really adamant in combining more of the GIS and Google SketchUp, pulling it in and out of those…

41:13…mediums like you've seen here at the summit. And so, we're moving towards that direction.

41:18But this is an actual site plan which the students conducted a 3D image of a, of the sites along US Route 66 in Flagstaff.

41:28And so they're working with a city project. The city actually gave them this design.

41:32They're working with the faculty and the students, and the students actually presented this.

41:38It actually has a small book that comes with it that the students created.

41:42So this is just a snapshot, but they actually were required to present this to the city and obtain ideas and feedback from them.

41:50So this is something that happens every year in one of the two capstones.

41:55Well, on the academic side, I couldn't resist this, and I take a full confession for this one.

42:02I wanted to see how Carl's geodesign framework fit into our major that we were designing.

42:09And so myself and another faculty member, we sat down and thought, well, where do our courses fit?

42:16And this is an actual interesting way that I thought to map out our courses onto the geodesign framework to…

42:24…see where these things fit. And I think an important lesson here is, you know, this is just an academic exercise at this point.

42:32Important lesson is that not all courses need to be teaching everything in geodesign.

42:37You can have courses out here on the periphery as long as they're pointing to other things and helping train the…

42:43…students in different areas, you can come back to that.

42:46And geodesign is more of a synthesis, as we saw in one of our last presentations.

42:51So it was an interesting exercise that some of you may want to go through sometime.

42:56And some quick takeaway tips. My big suggestion is kind of like what we looked at.

43:00What are you already doing? What do you have in place? What faculty do you have who are working together well?

43:05What kind of contacts do you have around the university to turn into opportunity?

43:13So turning adversity into opportunity. This started as a mandate for us to actually combine programs.

43:20We lost faculty members due to budget cuts, retirements, and so forth. It was like we were doing too much.

43:25How do you combine things? So we turned that into this opportunity. Patience is a virtue.

43:30This takes a long time, and you're not going to do all of the geodesign things you want to do overnight, in the…

43:36…next half year, in the next two years. And then finally, applied learning is vital.

43:41We've seen all of these examples today of applied activities--what some call learner-centered education, outcomes-based…

43:49…approaches and all of that jargon from higher education.

43:52But it's vital to have our students learn deeply as they move through the curriculum. And I think that's it.

44:00Here's some further information if you want it.

44:03Okay.

44:06Our final speaker is Boykin Witherspoon, who's the geospatial research manager at the Water Resources Institute…

44:12…at Cal State San Bernardino. He's also taught at Washington, Oklahoma, Cal Poly and worked for a while at Esri. So, Boykin.

44:23Oh, thanks. This is the question that Tom asked us to address, and so I'm going to focus on one of the challenges.

44:31I also want to let you know that what I'm going to talk about is specific to landscape architecture and teaching…

44:38…in landscape architecture.

44:39And I realize there's a lot of other disciplines here, but I'm talking specifically about teaching landscape architecture.

44:50So when I got that question from Tom, I started thinking, you know, what do I need to answer that question?

44:55And one of the things I thought I needed was, well what did we used to do to help define what are the new challenges?

45:04In 1987 at LSU, go Tigers, it's a good year to be a fan, Jon Emerson and Wayne Womack taught what they…

45:13…called the landscape design method.

45:14Now they did not invent this, but that's what they taught. And it was, you did inventory, analysis, concept, and design.

45:21And this was linear. The idea was, if you knew those first three, then you just make decisions.

45:29And it seemed to work pretty well. If I tried to iterate, Jon would come around with a ruler and rap me and…

45:35…say I have analysis paralysis. So it seemed to work pretty well, but what was really interesting that I learned from…

45:44…them also, was that the formation and use of a concept is critical in differentiating the profession of landscape…

45:50…architecture from the other development professions.

45:54The fact that we design with a concept is one of the things that sets us apart. It's what makes us special.

46:03Which translated means, this is why people will pay you. This is what's unique about your profession.

46:10And then also, the profession of landscape architecture outside of academics has built a 100-year-plus business model…

46:17…and billing structure to their paying clients based on a method like this.

46:21And I talked about that at the Esri User Conference, but that's another challenge that we face, is congruency with that.

46:29So, what's different? In the geodesign method, one of the big differences is the inventory has gotten really, really big.

46:40The inventory that I was taught, you walked out on the site with a piece of paper and you sketched the site and you used…

46:45…your newly found plant ID knowledge and you drew an arc of where the sun supposedly went, and that was inventory.

46:52So the inventory is much, much bigger now, and that's very, very different. Especially when you think about the…

46:57…billing structure to clients. But then the other real big difference here is the design analysis has been combined…

47:04…and is simultaneous that you get feedback as you're designing. You don't have to finish the design.

47:10So those are very, very different. So, and that's where I began to realize the challenges.

47:18So I have not seen the word concept used in geodesign yet. Now I did hear Bill Miller mention the word ethic as…

47:25…something that's potentially missing. I actually believe the concept in our traditional design method is equivalent…

47:32…to the ethic, and I do believe it's missing from geodesign.

47:36So when we tack the word design onto the word geo and say we're going to teach it to landscape architects, shouldn't…

47:41…we be teaching something different than a civil engineer? You know, eventually we can collaborate, but there's…

47:47…something that makes landscape architecture unique, or why will people come pay for our degree, or pay for our services?

47:54And so it's what makes us necessary. It's what's always made us necessary, is our solutions incorporate concepts.

48:02Now this is my opinion, and I do have a degree in fine art, so I do consider myself an artist also, but it's the difference…

48:09…between optimizing solutions based on a rule set, or being an artist.

48:13And again, that's what makes landscape architecture unique.

48:17So, I had to have a graphic. From the perspective of a landscape architecture, and this is how I explain the missing ethic, or…

48:26…concept, is what if design is a car, and you lift up the hood and it's not a Hemi driving that, it's a concept.

48:36And so now we've tacked the word geo onto design and we've got a bigger car, which is probably good, but the…

48:44…engine seems to have fallen out a ways back, and we're moving forward with nothing under the hood.

48:49No ethic, no concept. And nothing under the hood, again in my opinion, means we're just optimizing solutions, we're not…

48:57…designing in the landscape architecture sense, anything.

49:01So ignore the top part, I'll come back to that in a second. But in my opinion, what geodesign is really doing is…

49:08…offering designers the prospect of avoidance. Avoidance of anything not good.

49:14And one of the difference is, it does it real time as you're drawing. So that's what I think it does.

49:21So could geodesign promote the avoidance of that which is not good by using a traditional design concept…

49:28…to gauge what is good and not good? Can we put that ethic, that concept, into the analysis engine?

49:35And that's what I'm trying to show at the top. That's what I'm working on right now, is how do you shoehorn that concept…

49:43…back into all that scientific analysis and feedback, because the science and all of that tells you good or bad, but it…

49:50…does not tell you the whole story of good or bad based on what my profession believes.

49:58So I think our challenge, this is our challenge, and the challenge is nothing less to stay relevant as a profession as this…

50:05…technology changes. And what, again, what we're working on is, can we make the simultaneous analysis in geodesign…

50:13…be driven in at least part, by a concept. Thank you very much.

50:20Good. I think we'll have our speakers come up and have a brief conversation. And let's see, I think…is John Wilson still in…

50:31…the audience? He wanted to join us too. If you want to join…they…USC, as you know from booths outside, has a…

50:39…new program, and I think that maybe my first question to all of you is, what do you consider to be, and come on…

50:48…down John, what do you consider to be sort of the core skills of geodesign that sets it apart from the other disciplines that…

50:56…you know, we have traditionally thought of at landscape architecture, geography, what have you?

51:01Now Boykin, you just made the argument that it's missing something, but what do you think are…

51:06…what would be, what would you would define as the core set of skills? Anyone want to jump in?

51:13Yes, go ahead, Karen.

51:14Well, I think the core set of skills is based on what your original discipline is, because I don't think geodesign is limited…

51:22…to designers. You know, as we have seen, design is getting more and more interdisciplinary.

51:29And so the core set is whatever set of skills you need for your home discipline, and then in addition, the geospatial skills.

51:39And the, you know, we're doing more and more dashboards. We need to understand the logic and a bit of the math…

51:46…that goes with that.

51:47So you would argue that essentially it's a part of existing disciplines with a set of, sort of additional skills built into that.

51:54Right.

51:55Does everyone agree? Others? Janet?

51:57Well, I thought what Boykin was hitting on with concept kind of paralleled what I was trying to say with spatial form.

52:05Is that it gives, you know, it's that artistic touch, in a way, that is spatial, and that doesn't have to be unique to landscape architecture.

52:17I think any of the disciplines involved in geodesign project could develop that kind of concept, form-giving concept.

52:26I guess I would add also, that in the end, I don't think we can forget about the fact that people are experiencing the places…

52:34…that we're making. Whether they're large regional landscapes, or whether they're sites, or whether they're communities…

52:43…you know, these places are being experienced, and I think there perhaps is a tendency in some contexts, to lose sight of that.

52:53And to just, you know, put boxes out there and put palms out there, and that's design.

53:00Yeah, right. Tom.

53:01I could add onto that too, the idea of…is my mike on?

53:05Not yet.

53:06Okay.

53:07Now it is.

53:08There it is.

53:09There you go. You're on.

53:10Thanks. I'd add on to that concept also, that students really need to stay in touch or get in touch with the local community…

53:19…as you said, with any design project, or even research project that they're doing.

53:24If it's a combination of research and design, either throughout a curriculum, or in a course, they need to connect…

53:31…with, as Carl calls it, The people and the place.

53:34And that is something that we really can't lose sight of as a skill, is that public participation side of it.

53:40Yeah…yup. You know, the three of you in the center are developing new programs, right? New either in…

53:47…currently, or about to, right? Philadelphia, USC, and Northern Arizona.

53:52What have been some of the challenges that you've encountered in getting acceptance of geodesign and…

53:59…getting these programs under way that we could all learn from? Any one of the three of you? John, maybe since you're new…

54:06…and we haven't had a chance to speak yet, I'll call on you.

54:09Can everybody hear me, since I'm not miked.

54:11Oh, okay. I'm a soccer coach, so my voice can go a long way.

54:15Okay.

54:17I think you have to understand your audience and talk to the audience, so the answer to the previous question would…

54:23…have varied depending on who I was talking to. So if architects and landscape architects…

54:27Should I…There we go. Thanks, Shannon. Good idea.

54:31Start over.

54:32…geodesign brings…

54:33Thanks.

54:34…more data, perhaps more science, to the design enterprise. For planners it offers a vehicle to plan from the…

54:42…bottom up, rather from the top down. And for geographers and others that are heavily vested in GIS, it turns…

54:49…your attention from thinking about the past and how we got to the present, to what the future might be.

54:55And for me, if that's not enough all by itself, the next thing is, well, the status quo. If we just do business as we've…

55:01…done for the past hundred years, do you think the planet will be in good shape in another century? And the answer's no.

55:08So maybe we should change it up. So that's enough.

55:12Okay, good. Jim or Tom, any thoughts about it?

55:14I think there's a lot of competition right now and…within the university for programs and for you to step up to the challenge of…

55:23…explaining, of proving, why yours is interesting, why yours is valuable to the university, and more so to students and practitioners.

55:35I think that's a tough thing to sell. And it takes a lot of work. And on the logistics side, just finding space, finding the…

55:43…right kind of environment within the university to bring all of these disciplines together and have them…

55:50…interact in a way that is going to meet your goal.

55:55Yeah. Tom, and then Karen.

55:57I think one thing, real quick. I think my mike went off.

56:00Hello.

56:01There you go.

56:02Yeah, you're on.

56:03Okay. One of the challenges I foresee immediately in our new program is to actually encourage the students who…

56:09…traditionally want to study planning and those who want to study geography, or GIS, to talk to each other.

56:14And that is the idea of combining some of these courses and materials, so the planners are learning how to do research…

56:20…and where research and knowledge comes from, and the geographers are learning the skills of design and planning…

56:25…and community participation, which geographers like me were never a part of before.

56:30So it's the student mix which I think we're going to…and I think it's definitely surmountable, but as a faculty we need to make…

56:38…it clear to students why they're doing what they're doing.

56:41Yes, Karen, did you want to…

56:42A group of us who are the geodesign consortium put together a survey, and we sent it out to 178 programs of landscape…

56:52…architecture and planning, and the responses that we've received, one of the questions is, What do you see…

56:59…as the biggest challenge? And the number one challenge that we've been…we've gotten back through our feedback is…

57:08…a lack of understanding of the potential for geodesign among universities, among departments, and among administrators.

57:19Yes, Boykin.

57:20Another part of that survey exposed that there is a general consensus that the need and demand across all departments for…

57:29…GIS and geodesign will increase.

57:32Right. So, on that, part of this session is really about where geodesign is going. So what do you see in five years…

57:40…ten years from now, and what do we need to do differently in order to get there? Any thoughts about the future?

57:51I'll jump in…

57:52Okay.

57:53…and say that I think a lot of it is going to depend on how quickly some of the more innovative tools evolve.

58:02And, I mean, a lot of the things that we're challenged with right now are, as I said earlier, helping students see the…

58:09…impact of their decisions, their designs. And so, if you take something as simple as a grading plan, how do you…

58:17…see what that looks like, or, you know, it's a bit of a disappointment that we're not able to do that right now.

58:24I mean, we're not able to…we don't have something that is CityEngine-like that responds to those kinds of engineering rules…

58:34…and when you move something you know the impact of moving it immediately, and it's based on all of those principles…

58:44…of safety and things that you have to do, but as a designer, you really don't want to be worrying about.

58:54Right.

58:55So things evolving, like CityEngine and other tools that are going to make it easier and sort of embed a lot of that…

59:03…stuff that we don't want to have to worry about. Let us worry about the design.

59:07Yup, good. Yes, Karen?

59:09In practice we see a lot more integration and, in fact, in the design disciplines we see integrated practice.

59:18And I think that one of the things that has to happen and one of the things that will happen is that the silos…

59:23…will start to break apart in universities. And once that happens, then, you know, the door will be open for geodesign…

59:32…across the university.

59:34Right. David?

59:35Sort of a subtext that I sort of picked up from the presentations at the meetings last two days, on the one…

59:43…hand, there's all this gee-whiz magical mystery tour stuff, you know, that's really, really cool, you know, and it…

59:50…does all these really, really great things, and on the other hand, there's people that actually have to make decisions.

59:56And, you know, whether you're talking about a cyclical process of making decisions, or a linear process of making…

1:00:02…decisions, somebody eventually has to make decisions. And I guess where I would hope that geodesign is going is…

1:00:09…that the magical mystery tour will become even more accessible to the people that actually have to make the decisions…

1:00:17…and that there will be capacity for those decisions to be evaluated, reevaluated in a very cyclical process.

1:00:27Yeah, great, Janet?

1:00:30I'm going to follow up on Karen's.

1:00:31Okay.

1:00:32I think geodesign could be itself a silo breaker, or, you know, facilitate that and I'm thinking now a lot about…

1:00:41…the GIS course I have coming up, which is interdisciplinary, cross departments.

1:00:48And really thinking about bringing geodesign concepts into that as a way of facilitating conversation and ideas…

1:00:58…among students from different programs.

1:01:01And the other thing that…along with that, that I think we need to be thinking about for moving it forward is really…

1:01:08…moving now to encouraging use of the web-based GIS to facilitate collaborative geodesign and collaborative GIS.

1:01:21Good. Is there a question from the audience?

1:01:25Yes, David?

1:01:27[Inaudible question from the audience.]

1:02:22…to assure the mobility of students and faculty and ideas within that region, who is going assure that critical…

1:02:32…intellectual habitat is preserved? Who's going to assure that a waste treatment facility is appropriately sited so that…

1:02:41…bad ideas can be discarded with minimum impact on the rest of the region? In short, my question is, is the design of…

1:02:50…the geodesign education enterprise going to happen by design, or by happenstance?

1:02:56Good question. Who…David?

1:02:58I just want to say that…Janet mentioned silo breaking and geodesign as being silo breaking, and I know that at Minnesota, we…

1:03:08…had a bit of a silo-breaking experience. The university decided to create something called Institute on Environment.

1:03:15And Institute on Environment was a multidisciplinary set of folks that got together and are gradually becoming at least…

1:03:24…interdisciplinary, and I truly believe that…I think geodesign is really a transdisciplinary perspective of integrating the…

1:03:35…capacity to think spatially with the capacity to collaborate and make collaborative decisions with the ability to…

1:03:47…communicate…

1:03:48Right.

1:03:49…and represent.

1:03:50And sort of following your question, David. You're…seem to me you're suggesting that we do that across institutions…

1:03:54…not just across disciplines, right? Thinking regionally. Others want to take on that? Tom, and then Karen.

1:04:02I think right now, one of the biggest challenges and opportunities is the cross-disciplinary aspect because of the silos that…

1:04:07…most of us are in. And so, when you're looking at regional scales, or, you know, between the local and regional, and…

1:04:16…even larger than that, perhaps, you might find opportunities to pull in other disciplines.

1:04:23And I think it's probably a mistake to…I'm not sure anyone's thinking about this, but to say, Well, which scale fits best…

1:04:31…into a geodesign framework. We've seen examples at this summit and last year's summit alone where you're…

1:04:37…taking geodesign at the building and floor level, and then you're extrapolating out to entire regions, watersheds…

1:04:44…and cities and metropolitan areas. So with the scales alone, you're dealing with a lot of different disciplines…

1:04:51Right.

1:04:52…from the architecture and construction management areas, at the other end of the continuum, to your regional…

1:04:56…planning, you know, disciplines for design, and everything in the middle.

1:05:01Yeah, great. Yeah, Karen?

1:05:03I think with the budget situations that many universities are facing, there are some really crazy things going on right now…

1:05:10…and there are some decisions being made. Some of them are thoughtful and some are not thoughtful.

1:05:17And in order to make this not an accidental progress, I think things like Bill Miller's white paper are very important, you…

1:05:28…know, if we had a white paper about the curriculum for geodesign that, you know, people who are forming…

1:05:37…new programs could refer to and share with their administrators, you know, it may not be so haphazard.

1:05:47Good. Another question. There's two of you right next to each other.

1:05:55Is this on?

1:05:56Yes, go ahead.

1:05:57Do I need to stand up?

1:05:58Ah…

1:05:59Okay. I come from the professional side of things, so I'm not an educator by any means, but I have done a lot of…

1:06:07…education, and two…this is a two-part question. So the first is, when professionals ask you, you know, there's a certain…

1:06:14…level of competency that we need to achieve in landscape architecture, and civil engineering, and GIS…

1:06:20…we haven't even regionally, or you know, US-wide achieved a certain level of competency requirement…

1:06:28…for landscape architecture. And GIS, GIS professionals are still in the process of developing their registration…

1:06:35…requirements and licensing. When you create a geodesign professional, what are you creating that in a professional…

1:06:43…world, makes you that expert? It's sort of…I totally understand the value and the technology, and I love the…

1:06:53…concept, I'm just trying to understand…

1:06:55What's the expertise?

1:06:56…registration-wise professionally, where is that job? Where is that definition in the goal to get one at the end of your education?

1:07:06John?

1:07:08There's two answers. So one would be to ask whether we need more specialists. Perhaps we need more generalists.

1:07:15So that would turn the argument on its head. The second is, you know, I'm actually developing…I'm the lead person…

1:07:23…trying to develop a program that would create a bachelor's degree.

1:07:26And so, there are lots of people here that think the appropriate level is the master's.

1:07:30And so, one of the reasons we're focused on the bachelor's degree, is that we already have existing master's degrees…

1:07:36…in landscape architecture, and geographic information science, and planning, and what we think we could do is…

1:07:43…to have a progressive degree where you get a bachelor's and a master's in five years that are those combinations, or…

1:07:50…some other combination, like environmental science.

1:07:53And if you did the kinds of geodesign interdisciplinary bridge-building things as an undergraduate, then they…

1:07:59…would be a framework that you could build on with the things that you found most interesting.

1:08:04And I have the expectation that those people will go out maybe within the existing sort of licensing and certification…

1:08:10…structures, and the real test is whether they emerge as leaders. You know, and maybe not in 5 years, but in…

1:08:17…17 years, if you have another meeting like this, would I have a bunch of graduates standing down…

1:08:21…here with best examples, best case studies, best new tools? To me, that would be the judgment about whether…

1:08:29…I was successful, or not.

1:08:32Anyone else? David?

1:08:33I was just going to say that I think perhaps a way to think about that, and it's a very valid issue, but perhaps the…

1:08:39…way to think about that is that geodesign becomes a certification, as opposed to a licensure, and it becomes…

1:08:47…a certification that multiple licensures can address. And in that context, then, it sort of forces some commonality…

1:08:57…in some kind of a certificate curriculum, but it allows it to be applied to architecture. It allows it to be applied to GIS.

1:09:09It allows it to be applied to geography. It allows it to be applied to planning, to landscape architecture…

1:09:17…as a sort of a post-professional certification process.

1:09:22Let's see, Boykin?

1:09:24I think you asked your question wrong. I think the question is, who will pay for that service?

1:09:32And I think that's what we need to define is, we need to begin to look at our existing billing structures, who are…

1:09:39…our current clients, what's going to have to change in their expectations of the services that we provide?

1:09:48And so, I think that's one of the other challenges that I alluded to, is in our professional business models…

1:09:54…we need to make sure that we're not doing something that no one wants to pay for.

1:10:01Bill, maybe our last question. Is that okay? Good. You get the last word.

1:10:07Last question.

1:10:08Do you want to stand up?

1:10:09Oh sure.

1:10:13There you go.

1:10:15Okay.

1:10:16Am I on?

1:10:17Okay, good. What if I said that geodesign, with respect to your professions, was not a certification program or degree…

1:10:24…program, but it was like iteration. Design is an iterative process. What if I said geodesign was similar to iteration…

1:10:33…in the sense that it's part of the process of designing, not a particular degree program, or a certification program, how…

1:10:39…would you answer that?

1:10:42Yeah, Tom.

1:10:44I think a short answer to start, from my perspective is, Bill you're right on the money there.

1:10:49That education is an iterative process, and I realize this is jargon in higher education at this point, but what we're looking…

1:10:57…at in higher ed is the idea of preparing students to learn beyond our formal curricula.

1:11:03Students have been shown to actually learn best outside the formal curricula, which leads to the experiential learning and…

1:11:09…all of that. So the idea is that learning is an iterative process. So is this. Do our students need to learn a specific set of…

1:11:18…skills, I mean skills in terms of GIS software, and so forth. Specific software packages.

1:11:24Maybe they can learn one or two and learn to think with those, because it's the thinking process, I think, is most significant.

1:11:31Having the students be able to get through that process of education, and then continue their own education beyond that…

1:11:37…because that's what going to happen. You know, we call it lifelong learning.

1:11:42But no longer are we expecting students to actually learn all of the content, all of the material that we think they should learn…

1:11:49…in four years, or in a master's, or PhD program. It's going to go beyond that.

1:11:54Yeah. Go ahead, Jim.

1:11:58I think that there's an opportunity for geodesign to be a specialty in education, but maybe not in a profession.

1:12:12And so, I think there's a real need now to move ahead in…I mean, technology is moving so quickly and to try to keep…

1:12:21…up with that and build that. I don't know that it's reasonable to build all of that into an undergraduate program, but…

1:12:29…maybe a graduate program. And that the professions need to drive that. They need to drive that need, but I don't see it…

1:12:36…being necessarily a specialization, even in the professional world. But in education, I think there's a great opportunity for it.

1:12:44Good. Any final? Well, thank you all. You did a great job. Thanks. Join me in thanking our panelists, and good questions too. Thank you.