Find out how GIS helped drive Tim and Michelle Schilling’s ambitious project to bring Rwandan farmers into the competitive global coffee market. Timothy Schilling, PhD, is an agronomist and leads the Global Coffee Quality Research Initiative for the U.S. specialty coffee industry. Michele Adesir-Schilling, PhD, is a geographer and project manager.
Jul 11th, 2011
00:01A couple years ago, Laura and I went to Rwanda.
00:05This was an interesting adventure.
00:08I was attacked by a gorilla, thrown down.
00:12That's actually a true story.
00:16But even more interesting was that we met a couple, Tim and Michele Schilling.
00:21We went there to meet Michele because we'd heard of her work at the University of Rwanda building a GIS lab.
00:29And it was truly touching to see her work.
00:34And then she took us over to her house and introduced us to Tim.
00:37She said, This is my husband.
00:40Oh, okay, that's nice.
00:42But you ought to see his work…oh, that's kind of interesting.
00:45Well, we would.
00:47And it's all about coffee.
00:49I'm going to show a quick video to give you a basic introduction, then we're going to have Tim and Michele come out.
00:55They're a couple of heroes in my view, in a very subtle and interesting way.
01:00So can we show that video, please?
01:40I'm Tim Schilling, and I am the director of the USAID SPREAD Project.
01:45This is a project with the single objective of raising the incomes of rural Rwandans.
01:51And to do that, we have targeted the specialty coffee sector, because we know that with 500,000 coffee farmers in Rwanda…
02:03…and an average family size of seven, that anything that we could do to increase the price of coffee…
02:09…would actually affect the livelihoods of one-half of the population of Rwanda.
02:13Five hundred thousand farmers were processing coffee in 500,000 different ways.
02:18The common denominator there is always going to poor quality.
02:21The challenge was well, gee, with so many different farmers, how are we going to organize it to produce a quality product?
02:30So the answer to that was the centralized coffee washing station.
02:49We are able to sort, select, and purchase only high-quality cherries, so we can see a good, ripe, turgid…
02:59…red cherry is a high-quality cherry, okay?
03:02So that's the big difference.
03:04That's why a washing station immediately raises the quality of the coffee coming from the fields.
03:12When you do that, you're setting yourself up for the highest price available on the market.
03:17The coffee quality itself is just so high, it's so unique in its character, that it is, has become, sought after.
03:24So as soon as we exposed it, or unveiled the true quality of the coffee, the coffee industry…
03:29…the specialty coffee industry picked it up immediately and started to source high-quality coffees out of Rwanda.
03:35And of course, they're paying top dollar for it.
03:37And that top dollar makes it back to the farmer, which is what it's all about. [End video]
03:55Yeah, that's good.
03:57Good, good good!
04:06Michele is a geographer.
04:07A geographer, professor, teacher, a fantastic one, who's also into GIS.
04:13And Tim, an agronomist.
04:15Who started off at Texas A&M?
04:18No, North Carolina State.
04:20Oh, North Carolina, then became Texas A&M.
04:23And then, they're going to tell the rest of the story.
04:25Welcome them, Tim and Michele.
04:27Thank you, Jack.
04:29Yeah, thanks. Thanks a lot, Jack.
04:33And hello everybody.
04:34Wow, there sure are a lot of you out there.
04:40We're very honored to be here and be able to recount this story.
04:46You have to remember, this is a story of a country just getting out of one of the worst human catastrophes in history…
04:55…the genocide of 1994, leaving one million Rwandans dead.
05:04But it's also a story of reconstruction of rural Rwanda, through coffee sector transformation.
05:14You know, to make things even worse, after the genocide, coffee prices plummeted.
05:20It was the coffee crisis of the late '90s/early 2000s.
05:24Millions of Rwandans were left without any source of cash.
05:29This was after the genocide.
05:31So the social fabric of a nation was all torn apart; there was no trust going on; we had an incredibly progressive…
05:38…dynamic government trying to change the country for the better.
05:43Probably one of the best…certainly one of the best governments in Africa.
05:48But this was a very, very difficult situation for them.
05:51Things needed to change, or else the country could, indeed, revert back to chaos like before.
05:58In 2001, Michele and I moved to Rwanda with our family where I led a USAID project to…
06:07…it was actually all about rebuilding Rwanda's agricultural institutions after they were destroyed in the genocide…
06:15…and then utilizing that new capacity to increase rural incomes in some way or another.
06:21We didn't know we were going to be working on coffee.
06:26So it's true when I think about where we're starting from in 2001, it's difficult for me to believe that we are about to…
06:34…share this incredible experience today with all of you, and to show how GIS is part of this process of developing…
06:41…of helping the Rwanda coffee sector.
06:44So in 2001 when I came to teach GIS at National University of Rwanda…
06:50…in fact there was a very limited number of students, with no computer knowledge.
06:55We had two very old computers and ArcView 3.2, and a limited dataset…
07:01…a foundation dataset that was created by the United Nations to support the emergency action at that time.
07:09So in fact, there was more PhDs in the prisons than I had Rwandan colleagues.
07:17But it seems that there is always a bigger plan for everything, and I happened to be at the right place at the right moment.
07:24And Rwanda was driven by this Vision 2020, where information, communication…
07:31…and technology was supposed to play a major role for the development of the country.
07:36And GIS was really much of a specific technology to support that process, to be part of it.
07:42The university was the first institution to take this vision and to turn it into action and take it to the next level.
07:52So very quickly I became publicly involved in the creation and the development of the GIS center.
07:59So when indeed, Jack, after his attack with the gorilla, and he finally arrive at visitors in 2006 at the university…
08:09…we had, you can see on this picture he's with the director of the university smiling…
08:15…and indeed in this period of time in five years we had made a lot of improvements.
08:20We had, in fact, a good team of 20 GIS specialists trained at master level, we had nice facilities with 40 computers…
08:29…with the latest version of GIS software, so we were really in good shape.
08:34But as everything, you can have the best resources—if you don't apply it to solve it to a real problem, what is really the use of it?
08:43So this is also the story of our contribution to the Rwanda coffee sector.
08:48Yeah, that's right.
08:50One more thing. Good, that's it.
08:56There's a little, her earring actually is knocking that thing and making a lot of noise.
09:02And I was going to do that.
09:03I would like to kiss her also, but I…like the old Al Gore thing, but…
09:14How did we land on coffee?
09:16You heard the guy in the video a minute ago talk about that; I just need to repeat it in a way, because it's really a no-brainer.
09:24With those 500,000 coffee farmers out there, and having those huge family sizes, it was real, real clear that…
09:30…if you could increase the price they got for coffee by just a nickel…
09:37…you would indeed raise their incomes like over 100, even 200 and 300 percent.
09:46But, the trick was, I said already, that it was, the coffee prices were the lowest ever for, I think, over 50 years…
09:58…and so people weren't getting paid very much.
10:00We had to find a way to sell that coffee for more money than the international coffee market was paying.
10:09And the way we did that was to target the specialty coffee market.
10:20And you know the specialty coffee market, like Starbucks and hundreds of other roasting companies out there…
10:25…that you certainly frequent, is a huge, huge, global industry.
10:31Today it's well over $50 billion and is growing rapidly.
10:37The main thing here is that that industry is driven by quality.
10:43And quality pays higher prices.
10:47And that's exactly what we needed in Rwanda.
10:51This was the way out for the rural population, which represents 90 percent of Rwanda.
10:59So for a geographer, in a way it was hard to be able to put Rwanda on the world specialty coffee map…
11:07…when you know that Rwanda is so tiny that on a world map you don't even find it.
11:12You know, most of the time it takes the place of the needle that you use to put the map on the wall.
11:21But so, Rwanda is really a beautiful country and it's mainly best known for its natural landscape and beautiful landscape…
11:31…the land of the thousand hills.
11:33And it's also known for its gorilla.
11:36So it was really, we had to change the image of Rwanda through other resources.
11:43I'm leaving you.
11:44Okay, see you later.
11:49The whole object was to put Rwanda on the specialty coffee map.
11:55You know, we, but before you can do that, you have to do a lot of other things.
12:00You have to link Rwanda and Rwanda coffee to the specialty coffee market.
12:06How to get those 500,000 farmers meeting the demanding quality specifications of this market.
12:15That was a tall order.
12:17Somehow, though, for some, for a lot of reasons, the stars just seemed to be aligned in Rwanda.
12:25You know, the government of Rwanda, very progressive, very dynamic.
12:29They created this 2020 Vision with ICT at the forefront; they made this coffee objective a national priority.
12:38The institutions in the coffee sector immediately grabbed hold of this vision and started to move very clearly…
12:47…and very strongly to work hard to make this happen.
12:50And even the fact that international coffee prices were actually at the lowest level was led to…
13:01…you know, raising the incentive for the coffee farmer to do…
13:05…to change and improve that product, make the higher quality so that they could get more money.
13:10That worked also in the favor of Rwanda.
13:16Despite that, something was wrong, you know?
13:19Something was wrong.
13:20I'm an agronomist, as Jack said.
13:24And I was living in a veritable coffee paradise.
13:28Everything was great.
13:29The altitudes, the rainfall, the soils, everything was perfect, but I was drinking coffee from hell.
13:39Something was wrong.
13:41This coffee tasted really god-awful.
13:45I couldn't figure it out. What's going on?
13:46So we took several Rwandans, my colleagues, agronomists, Ministry of Agriculture, cooperatives, farmers…
13:54…and we went to Kenya, Nicaragua, and other countries to see exactly how these countries were meeting…
14:01…these market specifications that Rwanda seemed to be so far away from.
14:07And we found a foundational missing link, which was this famous coffee washing station.
14:17You know, a coffee washing station is nothing more than a processing center.
14:21It takes the red, ripe cherries as you saw on that video from the coffee tree and turns them into an exportable product.
14:30And that's one thing that was missing.
14:32Because they were doing things in 500,000 different ways, and it resulted in very, very poor quality.
14:39So we put the first coffee washing station into place in a place called Maraba in 2002, and we were able…
14:49…with a lot of interventions from the tree all the way to the coffee washing station…
14:55…to produce 30 tons of coffee that made the grade to be sold on the specialty market…
15:04…One to Community Coffee in Louisiana, the other to Union Hand-Roasted Coffee in London.
15:12And they received, these farmers received, over two times the price that any other Rwandan was receiving for their coffee.
15:20And bam! It was a huge success, and this success resonated throughout the country.
15:26You didn't need any news media or anything like that; the grapevine works just fine there.
15:31And now, the entire, everybody in the country wanted in on this action.
15:42So it's me, I think.
15:47Going back indeed to the coffee washing station.
15:51So as you can see, indeed Maraba was a big success.
15:56It was benefiting thousands of farmers.
15:59So now you can see here on the map, Maraba in red.
16:03But the question was, how to scale it up at the nation level…
16:08…and to have hundreds of thousands of farmers benefit from that success.
16:14And the question was also, but where to put this coffee washing station…
16:17…where to put these hundreds of new coffee washing stations in this country?
16:23On the map you can see the green area, it's the coffee growing region in Rwanda.
16:27So you can see there was plenty of space to be able to put new ones.
16:32It was also the question of how to avoid competition between, that everybody wanted a coffee washing station.
16:38So the success, where everybody wanted to find his own place, or how to be able to regulate and guide this process.
16:46How to have also entrepreneurs ready to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars into coffee washing stations…
16:52…to make sure that they will have a return on investment and benefit the farmer, but also in an environmentally sound manner.
17:00So this is where this famous new GIS team that was looking to test the tools…
17:08…we decided to be able to help, and we help with the process of decision making for this siting of coffee washing stations…
17:17…and starting with Maraba.
17:20So let me zoom in Maraba district.
17:26Okay, here. And so we work as a GIS team work with the agronomists, the technicians of the coffee project, but also…
17:36…we work also with the farmer at the cooperative.
17:39As you see here, this is a coffee washing station, the first one of the first cooperative of Maraba.
17:44Wanted to put new one.
17:46So we work with them to be able to determine the different parameters that we have to look for to be able to locate new site…
17:54…and so this is how we look at the coffee washing station, should be near a major coffee growing area…
18:03…it had to be outside of our existing coffee washing station, it needs to be close to a road, close to water…
18:10…but also not near national park, and have sufficient space also to be able to have the buildings.
18:19So when you look at the result in Maraba, so this model is based on macro on more on vector base…
18:27…so you can see here in brown the different areas that we were suggesting for the farmers.
18:34But then we refined the model and used a more raster-based approach we called the micro model…
18:40…to be able to look at other parameters like, for example, the springs needed to be higher than the site to allow gravity…
18:51…to bring the water to the coffee washing station, thus to avoid using electricity or…
18:58…other costly means of bringing power to the site.
19:03So, when you look at the result, here is a micro site selection model, then the combined, so the greener, the better.
19:13So there was two major potential suitable sites that we were recommending.
19:20So the cooperative members did trust our power, technological power, and so they did build, after 2004…
19:30…two new coffee washing stations that you can see here that were, indeed, in those suitable areas.
19:36They are still very functional today, and I think a lot of impact on the life of those cooperative members.
19:47So now the next step was to take it to the national level.
19:51So let me zoom now at the national level; here it is.
19:57So I'm going to take the result out.
20:01So here is the result of the same model, but applied at the national level, macro model, micro model, and then combined.
20:11So here, you can see now at the national level where we were recommending the cooperative of a private investor…
20:19…to build new coffee washing station.
20:21And indeed, it went very fast.
20:23And I can show you now how it happened in 10 years' time.
20:30So here is now the coffee washing station in time and space.
20:35So you see that after 2004, there was really a great increase in coffee washing station creation…
20:41…and then a little bit more, less after 2007.
20:46In fact, today, there is 200 coffee washing stations that have been built.
20:50So in 10 years, so you can see the impact.
20:54And it means that 50 percent of the coffee production is processed through those coffee washing stations…
21:00…meaning the increase of coffee quality, and also it means a lot of jobs for the people working at the coffee washing stations.
21:08So back to you, Tim.
21:10Alright, yeah, that's, yeah, by 2004, really, Rwanda was on a roll.
21:23They were selling coffee now to the US, to Japan, and to Europe on the specialty coffee market.
21:29But, the coffee still wasn't like blow your socks off awesome.
21:35It just wasn't, it didn't have that consistency to keep going to get the buyers coming back and being really, really happy with the product.
21:43There was something else going on, and it makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
21:46It had only been two years, three years since this whole thing started.
21:51There was a lot of things not done.
21:52And most of that was all about training.
21:55A lot of snags along the supply chain.
21:58Poor management, quality controls were not put into place, just a whole lot of things.
22:05The main thing that was missing was the fact, first of all, that Rwandans don't drink coffee.
22:11There was no coffee culture.
22:14As a result, as anything, you know, if you don't know what the product is, if you don't know what the quality is…
22:21…if you don't know how to measure it, you're certainly not going to be able to improve it.
22:26And this was the big thing.
22:28So we worked very, very have on trying to fix this problem so that we could increase prices.
22:39And the way we did that was through, was through bringing coffee buyers into the country.
22:53The coffee market had changed.
22:56Coffee companies were, you know, generally they would, the way, let me just…
23:04The way it generally works is that coffee is bought by huge companies and then it is imported into…
23:12…or exported out of those countries and imported into the US, and then it is distributed to roasters.
23:19But things had changed.
23:20Starbucks and others, they started to source coffee directly.
23:25And this led to a huge opportunity for Rwanda by linking the specialty market directly to the Rwandan growers and cooperatives…
23:35…that were producing the coffee.
23:37So we were able to utilize coffee experts from the US coffee industry to train the Rwandans in evaluating coffee…
23:47…which is called coffee cupping.
23:48It's kind of like wine tasting.
23:50And to increase their business skills, and to put in the quality controls that were necessary.
23:56And all along the time, all along this line, the Rwandans were cupping, they were tasting the product…
24:02…they were able to understand exactly why the coffee was tasting better and therefore they could get a better price.
24:10At that point, and this is about 2008, Rwanda became a sought-after specialty coffee origin.
24:17And then, many coffee companies were keeping Rwanda coffee in, and it had created a brand all by itself.
24:25Rwanda coffee equals good coffee.
24:28Kind of like the Juan Valdez thing from many, many years ago, the Colombian coffee.
24:33So that was an incredible achievement for Rwanda.
24:42And in fact, it was the first time ever a country was able to ascend to those kinds of heights…
24:51…in the specialty coffee industry in such a short, short time.
24:54So we started to say well, you know, why stop here?
24:59With Rwanda's quality potential and the drive of the government and the whole…
25:06…all the actors in this coffee sector, we could probably achieve even higher prices…
25:12…if we were able to differentiate that good brand of Rwanda into smaller brands of higher quality, more unique…
25:23…better tasting coffees, kind of like the wine sector did.
25:27You know, you pay a premium price for a French wine, a Bordeaux for example…
25:33…and you pay it because that Bordeaux wine has a set of taste attributes that come from the terroir…
25:39…in which it was created that make you come back.
25:43It's dry, it has tannic acid, and these are things that people want.
25:49And the smaller you go down into the Bordeaux region into smaller terroirs… 00:25:55
26:02So we figured well, why not attempt this appellation development with Rwandan coffee?
26:10And this was a new thing, this is some, Guatemala and Colombia have played with it to some extent…
26:17…but this was the first time that we would actually utilize GIS and some other higher technologies to try to create Rwandan appellations.
26:26The very first thing that needed to be done was to verify that Rwanda possessed a plethora of unique and desirable taste profiles.
26:37I mean, it's one thing to be unique; it's another thing to be desirable.
26:42But when you put those two together, you create an incredible market opportunity, and this is what we tried to do.
26:51How to go about it, that was a different story.
26:57We brought into Rwanda what's known as, in the coffee world, the Cup of Excellence.
27:04The Cup of Excellence is a very prestigious coffee competition.
27:08It is like the coffee Olympics.
27:10And we brought that to Rwanda where many different coffee experts, buyers, tasters…
27:18…come into a country and evaluate all the coffees there to select the best of what they have.
27:28Once we took the best coffees that Rwanda produced, the next part was to correlate those taste attributes…
27:40…that were detected by these panelists, these coffee experts…
27:43…correlate those taste attributes with the geographic variables from the places where the coffee was produced…
27:54…and therefore try to get a certifiable appellation just like the wine world.
28:02And this is where Michele is going to run us through some of the technology…
28:07…and the general approach we used in developing these appellations. Michele?
28:15Yes, thank you, Tim.
28:16So let's move back, indeed, into Rwanda.
28:18And so you're going to be able to see here these famous eight coffee winners of the Cup of Excellence 2007.
28:26And so I must say that this piece of work and analysis did challenge us.
28:30At first it was kind of an innovative way of doing work on coffee appellation; nobody had done that before like that.
28:40And to be able to have the sophistication of the wine in France, that's something that we were really…
28:47And also, we had to work as a multidisciplinary team of geographers, agronomists, socioeconomists…
28:54…but also a new area of expertise that also was a new thing that we were not really familiar with, which was a cupping specialist.
29:06Each one was coming with this scary spider geogram, and with this taste unique profile for each of the coffee washing stations.
29:17And as you can see, we had to deal with 20, 30 variables of fragrance, aroma, taste, flavor, mouth feel, finished…
29:25…that we had no really clue with some of the attributes he was talking about.
29:31Like linden, and [unintelligible] Rwandan taste and apricot.
29:37So okay, we had to be able to get that.
29:42But our goal was really, indeed, to link the taste to space.
29:49So what we did is that we went into our database and started to play with all the geoprocessing tools…
29:56…that were available in the software to be able to interpolate a number of key environmental variables that explain, could explain taste.
30:07So here you can see that we had data on precipitation in Rwanda, we had also temperature…
30:16…among other meteorological variables that we were dealing with.
30:21Also, soil is an important factor that explains taste, so we had organic matter.
30:26And then when we zoom in a specific service area of those coffee washing stations where the coffee lots were coming from…
30:37…then you can see how soil pH, for example, the variability of soil pH in a service area of the coffee washing station.
30:47So we extract all these key environmental variables and take all the taste variables and give that to the statistician…
30:57…so he can do his principal component analysis.
31:00So we are very anxious with the result because we wanted to have a good result…
31:04…or at least a promising result, so we can move further into the analysis.
31:10So when the result came, we were quite happy, because first we were able, indeed…
31:16…to make a link between taste and space for at least three coffee washing stations.
31:22So for example, here in the north, this is Muyongwe, which is a coffee lot coming from the north region…
31:29…was really dominated by black currant and wild nut flavor.
31:36But not only we're able to make that link…
31:38…but also we're able to make a link between a specific taste variable and specific environmental variables.
31:47So let's look again at this north region coffee lot.
31:54So in fact, wild nut and red currant were explained more by high altitude and high rainfall.
32:03So this was very important for us.
32:05So the next step was really to map the taste to do like the wine industry, you know?
32:11Then you have really a clear boundary where you know this is where this is a unique taste that will be there for every year forever.
32:22So using environmental cluster analysis, we cut those tastes in space and add…
32:30…as you can see here, a map of those unique boundaries of taste.
32:35So now the question is, is it really true?
32:40Do those tastes really link to those spaces?
32:44So this is where a team, right now, is working on the ground collecting a lot of data…
32:52…and test if we can validate this model in the service area of the north Huye region.
33:01And so in red, here, you can see the boundaries of the service area.
33:06And in the surface area in the more brown, you can see the unique environmental cluster…
33:14…and so they're trying to test, indeed, if the taste can be mapped in those boundaries.
33:24So we are waiting for the results, so, to be continued.
33:28Yeah. Actually we have results.
33:30The…two months ago, we took this north Huye profile, and we sent it to 20 coffee companies in the US…
33:41…in a market survey, asking those coffee companies, basically, two main questions, okay?
33:46First, are you able to identify the profile of this coffee, one.
33:52And the answer was yes, you're right on.
33:54And this is the fourth year that this has been going on.
33:57So we've got the real thing in our hands.
34:00And two, will you, are you interested in paying a premium?
34:06And the answer was yes, we are interested in paying a premium for this coffee of 25/35 cents per pound…
34:15…if you can get it to us on a consistent basis and this profile holds up.
34:21So we're moving there, and this is great news.
34:24I think within the next two or three years we'll have our first Rwandan appellation.
34:33And I hope that you'll be looking for that on your supermarket shelves.
34:39But let's get back to the bigger story here and talk about what happened over these 10 years.
34:47And you can just sum it up very, very easily here.
34:53You know, hundreds of thousands of rural Rwandan families are making six times…
34:58…six times more money than they were, today than they did in 2000 through this coffee sector.
35:07Yeah, it's true.
35:13And the most beautiful thing about it is that that income, and we verified this, has gone into putting kids into schools…
35:22…buying those kids school supplies, getting the family health care, education, and basically allowing them to improve their own lives.
35:37And when you think about it, it's really what it's all about.
35:40It's really what we are all about.
35:42Is trying to do what we do to make other people happy.
35:46And we've been honored to do so.
35:59Just one, we want to scale this up.
36:06We have established now the Norman Borlaug Institute at Texas A&M University…
36:12…working alongside the Specialty Coffee Association of America.
36:16We've put together what we call the Global Coffee Quality Research Initiative…
36:20…which is all aimed at increasing the quality of coffees and alleviating constraints to higher sustainable yields…
36:28…and preventing future disasters due to global warming and other biological threats.
36:32So this is where we're going, and I guess we want to also say, first of all I'd like to say, thank all of you for listening…
36:45…but don't, you need to remember to drink high-quality coffee.
36:54It helps people, and it helps you.
36:56It's a better product, it's better for your health, and it's enriching in so many different ways.
37:03But don't just drink good coffee, but also drink coffee that you know where it's coming from.
37:09Because to make sure that you will go back, the money will go back into the pocket of the right farmer.
37:14And of course, I'm GIS, so if there is a where question, then we know that we're promoting also GIS!
37:20Okay, so thanks, and we want to thank all our partners, you know, this was a team work, this was not just Michele and I.
37:28All of these institutions, governments and everything, were involved in this piece of work…
37:32…and we're just so happy to have been a part of it.
37:35So thank all of you.
37:42Thank you, Tim.
37:43Well Jack, we're always late, you know.
37:45No, no. Not a problem.
37:46We speak too much.
37:47Thank you, Michele.
37:48Agronomy and geography, bringing taste to place, agrobusiness!
37:55You can see why I was totally enchanted with these people.
37:59The story for me is, here's two people who are ingenious.
38:07I mean, they weren't just satisfied by coming and doing work.
38:11I mean you used your brains, you brought it together, I'm so proud of what you've done.
38:17This is so well respected in Rwanda that the president of Rwanda invited us, all of us, to come and he acknowledged Tim and Michele.
38:27But it's also becoming acknowledged as a new pattern across Africa.
38:31Jane talked about you guys when we visited last.
38:34It's going into Tanzania, it's going into the Congo. It's spreading.
38:38So this is how creative activity can build real change.
38:43I mean, these are people who actually changed the game.
38:48I hope you realize that.
38:50Let's acknowledge them one more time.